1 / 9
Mar 2015

Hi there. I have been - I was? - a happy european user of e-junkie for many, many years. Until 31-dec-2014, VAT was added to the price set inside e-junkie for all my european customers of my purely electronic deliveries, my business being based in the EU too. Some of them were cheating on their address but that does not really matter, a seller cannot be responsible for a lie made by the customer. The situation was clear: one gross price for everyone around the world, and e-junkie adding VAT when it had to do it.



Since 01-jan-2015, this is not the case any more, e-junkie REMOVING the VAT from the gross price for EU customers, and this became HELL to me. Non-EU customers don't want to see an increase in price, and I have to charge different VATs rates for the various EU countries. Offering several buttons for EU and non-EU customers is not a weak, ugly, hacky option: it's also a clear signal to EU customers they should use the non-EU button and cheat on their address to pay less.



I am under the impression this was made because e-junkie is just enable, because of an old codebase that probably lacked updated, to deal with 27 VAT rates. Yes, only 27. That's so hard.



The argument you don't do a perfect validation of the customer's location does not seem to me acceptable since this was not the case in the past either.



I just cannot understand how e-junkie decided to make a such a move, incredibly harmful to european users of e-junkie. I urge e-junkie to fix this ASAP and go back to the current behaviour ADDING vat to the gross price for EU customers when the seller is based in Europe.



Failing to see any viable solution in the "hacks" recommended in the help pages or this forum, I am ready to leave e-junkie. I do not easily forgive the 20% loss on my income generated by this huge mess, sorry.



Let me repeat: a 27 values array is missing. If this is not fixed rapidly, I will be forced to leave e-junkie.

  • created

    Mar '15
  • last reply

    Apr '15
  • 8

    replies

  • 1.9k

    views

  • 3

    users

  • 5

    links

On Dec. 31st, 2014, we announced changes to our VAT calculation method, both via personal email to each affected seller's E-junkie Login Email (including yours) and in our Service Status & Updates forum, following extensive research along with discussion in this very forum (likely our longest discussion thread ever):

2http://www.e-junkie.com/bb/topic/68192



You can read the official announcement in our Service Status & Updates forum, providing an explanation of how our new VAT calculation method works, where and how we now report calculated VAT amounts and related data for sales in 2015, and why the change was necessary for compliance with new EU VAT regulations effective Jan. 1st, 2015:

3http://www.e-junkie.com/bb/topic/69403



A more concise explanation is provided on our current Sales Tax & VAT help page:

7http://www.e-junkie.com/ej/help.tax.htm7

Oh be sure I read all of that. E-junkie could have done differently, because the current situation is untenable to european customers of e-junkie (and I mean vendors here) but no.

Let me summarize:



- you're unable to change your existing code from a array-lookup-based-on-vendor to array-lookup-based-on-customer, something rather trivial and immensely better than the current mess



- you're unable to allow an order with different VAT rates in same order, something all businesses around the world deal with on a daily basis



- you're unable to tweak your UI and system to let at least european customers specify a list of country codes and VAT rates. Something like a list of patterns "*, 0%; FR, 20%; UK, 20%; ..."



- you could have forced EU customers to require country and zipcode in the checkout process and that would enable you to process the new EU VAT.



E-junkie did the ultra-minimal job, i.e. has put the whole burden on EU customers instead of updating its code. I am deeply shocked by how e-junkie left us european businesses in such a mess.

Oh, and you had six months to prepare that light change... Amazing. You already have different sales taxes in the US with different local rules, like for example in California. You can deal with them w/o issue.

We actually had to make rather significant changes to our code and write entirely new routines to accommodate the new EU VAT directives, the exact details of which really only came to broad awareness among the ecommerce development community around November, so our Development staff had to burn the midnight oil for several weeks straight, right down to the end-of-year wire, to get the changes ready to roll out in time.



Responding to your summary points in order:



- We do perform VAT rate lookups for the buyer's location when appropriate -- i.e., on digital goods for EU sellers, and on all goods for non-EU sellers (presuming those sellers have VAT calculation enabled for their account and relevant products);



- We do calculate different VAT rates for different items in the same order when relevant, such as when an EU buyer's order contains a combination of tangible and digital items;



- We do keep track of the current VAT rate for each EU country, as well as special VAT rates on ebooks for countries that have one, so it's not necessary for sellers to specify their own VAT rates manually, and doing so would just open the potential for needless mistakes with no upside in that tradeoff;



- We do require buyers to select their country and postal code in the cart whenever their order contains taxable items, regardless of whether they're in the EU or not; however, that alone is insufficient to conclusively determine the buyer's "place of supply" under the new VAT regulations.



Unfortunately, the new EU VAT rules require that all prices sellers display must be the buyer's final price including VAT, and since VAT on digital goods has now become a variable amount depending on the buyer's verified "place of supply", only two approaches can satisfy that requirement:



A) Simple method: set a flat gross price for all buyers that includes VAT overhead;



B) Complex method: conclusively determine each buyer's place of supply before dynamically calculating their final price incl. VAT to display on your sales pages.



The new VAT rules specify that "place of supply" on digital items must be verified by collecting at least 3 unrelated pieces of location data, only 1 of which can be arbitrarily self-declared by the buyer, and identifying a country match between at least 2 of those data points. For web-based sales, this effectively means obtaining a 2-way match between a GeoIP country lookup of the buyer's connection IP, the Billing/Residence address registered to the buyer's payment account, and any buyer self-declared location such as a Shipping address or cart-selected country, and that's exactly how we do it.



Therefore, the complex method B described above would effectively require full-featured traditional ecommerce software installed on your server, which not only provides shopping cart functionality but also generates your site's storefront pages and manages checkout as a self-contained process; in this scenario, buyers would need to register for a customer profile account on your site and provide address details to verify their place of supply, so they can be logged into that account before shopping where your storefront could calculate final prices incl. VAT to display to each buyer.



That method simply cannot work with E-junkie, as we provide neither storefront-generation nor customer profile functionality. We merely provide purchase buttons to paste into your own, independent sales site, and we are only provided with sufficient buyer information to verify their place of supply after checkout has already been completed, so the simple method A described above, which was proposed and strongly demanded by sellers in the earlier VAT thread here, was the only feasible approach left for us to implement.



We frankly agree that this whole situation is onerous and absurd, but please direct your grievance to the parties responsible for deciding and imposing these new requirements, and who also have the power to change them, namely your representatives in national and EU government.



We have no operational presence based in the EU and thus have no representation nor influence with EU decision makers, so we can only do our best to accommodate these new regulations as they have already been enacted, as a convenience for our clientele. Although we are not operating within EU jurisdiction, our sellers are obliged to comply with EU VAT directives when selling to buyers in the EU, so we have to facilitate that.



This site is one of the most clearly informative resources for laymen that we've found explaining the new VAT rules, and seems to be the foremost in organizing the effort at redress:

http://euvataction.org/

Oh, and you had six months to prepare that light change... Amazing. You already have different sales taxes in the US with different local rules, like for example in California. You can deal with them w/o issue.

https://explorequotes.com/

We can only handle US state/local sales tax rate variations down to the 5-digit ZIP code level, for jurisdictions that regard a buyer's self-declared ZIP code as sufficient to determine their tax rate; we cannot support tax jurisdictions that define rates more finely than entire 5-digit ZIP-code regions, or which require more stringent verification of the buyer's location.



This is entirely unlike the new situation with EU VAT regulations that now require multi-factor corroboration of the buyer's location, where one of the required factors -- registered Billing/Residence country of the buyer's payment account -- cannot become known to us until after the buyer's payment has already been completed. Because of that last fact, it is not possible for us to accurately calculate VAT before checkout in any way that would allow our merchants to comply with the new EU VAT regulations. Therefore, we were left with no choice but to calculate VAT after the fact as the only remaining, fully compliant option.

25 days later

"Therefore, we were left with no choice but to calculate VAT after the fact as the only remaining, fully compliant option" remains an unacceptable answer from a user's perspective. The previous situation was better than no VAT calculation at all, and under th EU directive, this is the seller's responsibility to make sure the VAT is calculated according to the required multiple information, not yours. As a proxy, and a proxy outside of the EU, you're not mandated to anything.

So you decided to downgrade your users' experience to comply with something you, as a corporation, don't have to comply with. I, as a EU reseller, have to. Not you.



Let me repeat it : the way you have left your EU customers in limbos has been unacceptable.

Our clientele who sell to buyers in the EU certainly are subject to EU VAT, regardless of where our own corporate operations are based. If we had not revised our EU VAT approach in exactly the way that we did, our clientele would have been left completely unable to comply with the new EU VAT regulations. That certainly would have constituted leaving them in limbo, with no choice but to abandon using E-junkie entirely or else risk penalties for their failure to comply with VAT requirements.